Spider flowers

Longifolia, clackamus, busle foliage. Bell, wasp type of flowers. Other characteristics.

Spider flowers

Postby botan » March 8th, 2012, 2:31 am

The flower petals are thin and long.

Optimara Glacier II (8312) 12/14/1995 (Holtkamp) Single white sparkle, frilled. Light-medium green, pointed, hairy, wavy, serrated. Small standard
Lunar Lily (J. Dates) Single pink and white wasp; Medium green, hair, bustled leaves.
Last edited by botan on March 8th, 2012, 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby Laci » March 8th, 2012, 11:37 am

Botan, how do you mean spider flower? Lunar Lily has wasp type of flower.
I looked Optimara Glacier in FC2, but there are
Optimara Glacier I and Optimara Glacier II. One of them has normal flowers the other doesn't have picture in FC2.
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby botan » March 8th, 2012, 12:48 pm

It's Optimara Glacier II, I've edited my previous message. :)
Yes, I know that in the descriptions it says that the flower is wasp, but I think Lunar Lily White and Optimara Glacier II has absolutely new type of flower.
I red about this in here http://dimetris.ru/news/articles/formy-cvetov-senpoliy
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby avisrapax » March 8th, 2012, 3:03 pm

I'd be wary of deciding that this is a 'new type of flower'. It simply looks like a wasp where the petals have lain flat rather than curling. There are a big variation on the types of flowers classed as stars and I don't know if this is much different - it's just an intermediate form, rather than a new type to my eyes. I could be wrong, of course, but I'd love to see someone breed it and see if that particular shape was passed on or, as I suspect, you'd get either wasp or pansy offspring. I love lunar lily, it is a stunning plant, but I don't have it any more to give it a shot myself =) If it was a new type it'd be lovely to get all sorts of colours on it (it reminds me of a hyacinth flower).
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby Laci » March 8th, 2012, 4:41 pm

Botan your question was initiated a very good discussion. I asked about Spider type flowers.

Here is the reply from Mr. Jeff Smith:
"Spider type flower is a combination of the wasp petals with the star flower shape. Most wasp plants are wasp petals on pansy flower shape. With wasp and star combinations, you get 5 petals that are restricted in width, radiating from a center point similar to rays of a star. This is a rarer type of wasp flower, but not too hard to breed for. Cool Hand Pink was a very old Jimmy Dates plant with this combination with pink narrow petals radiating like the fingers on a hand (named after the Cool Hand Luke move character with Paul Newman)."

"Yes, that’s an easy way of viewing the difference between wasp and spider. Spider type is a variation or form of wasp blooms. I think hybridizers when writing up the descriptions see the “wasp” feature of the plant first and may not notice the “star shape” that gives spider."
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby botan » March 8th, 2012, 8:19 pm

It's a good thing that we have the opinion of Mr. Jeff Smith, but I am ready to argue a little bit with him.
I wouldn't look to the spiders like some kind of combination for sure, especially of wasp and star. The flowers of Golden Autumn and Lyon's Raspberries and Cream are more like a combo between these two types. Also Lunar Lily's flowers aren't stars for sure! The upper petals are way too short from the downer.
Also I wouldn't look to the spiders like some kind of wasps. Wasp petals are curved what makes the illusion that they are thin but they aren't so much. If we curve the petals of a spider we will have almost twice as long looking petals than the wasps.
But one thing is for sure, the origins of the spiders come from the wasps.
avisrapax wrote:... but I'd love to see someone breed it and see if that particular shape was passed on or, as I suspect, you'd get either wasp or pansy offspring. I love lunar lily, it is a stunning plant, but I don't have it any more to give it a shot myself =) If it was a new type it'd be lovely to get all sorts of colours on it (it reminds me of a hyacinth flower).

I will! I have Lunar Lily with buds. Image

PS: I can't find a picture of Cool Hand Pink. Image
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby avisrapax » March 8th, 2012, 10:18 pm

Ah, thanks for contacting Jeff Smith, Laci - I was thinking of doing the same thing myself. I should have realised it was star, not pansy as a base given that star blossoms tend to interact interestingly. Otherwise, though, it was much as I thought. I must try as he suggests in the future as I love the shape of Lunar Lily =D

Botan, let us (and Jeff Smith) know what you find out if you cross your Lunar Lily. I know he does a lot of experiments himself and loves to hear back on the results from various crosses (as do I!).
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby illustrator » March 13th, 2012, 11:43 pm

Just wondering: in wasp flowers, the petals are separated from the base on, right? Same in "spider flowers", I guess. But NOT so in Lunar Lily White, there the petals are narrow and elongated, but connected at the base as in a "normal" violet flower. So how many mutations are there, just a wasp-one (which may be heterozygous in LLW), or 2 different ones?

Please be carefull not to confuse Lunar Lily (which is a pink spider!) with Lunar Lily White, which seems to be NOT a wasp to me.

Can someone check what foliage Lunar Lily White has? I think that wasps and spiders should always have bustle foliage (which the description of Lunar Lily also states) but that Lunar Lily White has normal (boy type) leaves (the description does not say anything about the type of leaves) ...

p.s. I had a white star flowering plant with petals separated from the base by chance out of a leaf-cutting from a supermarket-chimera plant, but stopped growing it after a while because I am not too crazy about star-shaped flowers. Flower shape was not very different from a normal star, leaves were normal.
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby botan » March 14th, 2012, 12:41 am

Lunar Lily White is with spider flowers so the spiders aren't with separated from the base petals, the pink one is with wasp. I don't have the pink one but the white has no bustle foliage. It has absolutely normal boy foliage. :)
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby Valkiria » March 15th, 2012, 5:52 pm

Normal usual foliage of Lunar Lily White:

Image

Flowers of the Lunar Lily White:
Image

Image
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby illustrator » March 15th, 2012, 9:36 pm

If a spider is nothing more than wasp+star, and wasp goes together with bustle, then spider should also have bustle.

And in that case, Lunar Lily White is not a wasp (and definately not a spider, considering the clearly pansy shaped flowers ... )! However, Lunar Lily (the pink one) is a spider and has (as expected) bustle foliage. Lunar Lily White and Lunar Lily are entirely different plants, despide their similar name.
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby illustrator » March 16th, 2012, 12:23 am

Here's another one which could be "not a wasp" ... :

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=438

Again no word about bustle foliage, again in most flowers a fused base of petals (but according to the photo, this seems variable).
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby botan » March 16th, 2012, 10:49 pm

No-o-o-o you've messed the whole concept of the spider flowers, they must be with very thin and long flower petals, not curved, no mater stars or pansies.
The pink Lunar lily is 1000% wasp.
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby HankaP » March 17th, 2012, 9:35 am

illustrator wrote:Here's another one which could be "not a wasp" ... :
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=438
Again no word about bustle foliage, again in most flowers a fused base of petals (but according to the photo, this seems variable).

Paul, I don't know if it's so right to distinguish and define the wasp, as you say...? I know only the definition, which says that wasp is flower which have two upper petals narrow or back rounded... (AVSA).

Wizard's Danania is as the wasp in the First Class described... Likewise, there are some other varieties with exactly the same shape of flower, labeled as the wasp.

E.g.:
Crystal Chicken Paw
Image

Fay's Paisley
Image

Fay's Teva Michelle
Image

Nancy's Plum Freckles
Image

or Rhapsodie Fenja
Image

Also there is a total of 72 varieties of flower type "wasp", of which only 19 declares also the "bustle" in the description of leaves ...
I know that in the FC are sometimes mistakes (perhaps sometimes "bustle" is not only in the description), but still those disparity of the numbers are startling...? Besides, two varieties (the both of Wizard's) declares "variable bustle"...
So it seems the bustle leaves are by the wasp flowers usualy, but not imperative.
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby HankaP » March 17th, 2012, 9:36 am

When I take as a basis the definition of a wasp (according to AVSA) and the definition of a spider (as a subset of the wasps; according to Dr. Jeff Smith, as Laci quoted here), then I think the spider is not Lunar Lily White or Optimara Glacier II, but e.g.:

Golden Autumn
Image

Ko's Midsummer Night
Image

Ko's Innovation
Image

Lyon's Raspberries and Cream...
Image
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby botan » March 17th, 2012, 10:40 am

I can't understand why all of you think the opinion of Dr. Jeff Smith is undoubtedly true... conf:
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby HankaP » March 17th, 2012, 5:00 pm

If I can say for myself - because I don't know of anyone else who would be so long and systematically engaged in the scientific research of Saintpaulias, and especially their genetics. I just don't know the larger global authority on genetics and hybridizing African violets.

And because - whether we like it or not - the final word in the African violets have AVSA, and invent parallel terminology or definitions is totally counterproductive...
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby botan » March 17th, 2012, 11:08 pm

HankaP wrote:If I can say for myself - because I don't know of anyone else who would be so long and systematically engaged in the scientific research of Saintpaulias, and especially their genetics. I just don't know the larger global authority on genetics and hybridizing African violets.

Ahaa just because he is dorctor. anim:
Well I don't find his opinion very competently this time. confused:
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby HankaP » March 18th, 2012, 12:31 am

Botan, if you want to just be arrogant, there is no reason to continue... :-)

Otherwise you can try to justify why you seem his opinion to be incompetent, and on what your beliefs based.
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby botan » March 18th, 2012, 12:59 am

Oh no I don't want to be arrogant, I'm just telling my opinion. I really admire the work of this man, but I just think what he said is not true.
Already told why I think that, just below his quote. ;)
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